How do we treat women?

[Seraph]

Sorry Seraph, you can't use your argument in this. Paul was referencing something specific. The "NEW TESTAMENT" was not around when Paul was alive. Yes, God knew that his letters would one day be placed in the book we call the Bible. The scriptures Paul is talking about are not his letters though.

Now, that being said, I firmly believe that when the Apostle Paul gives a command we should follow it. However, there are numerous times where Paul is not giving commands and I believe this is one of those cases.

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14:37 "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." Paul recognized that his letters were from God. Peter agreed in 2 Peter 3:16; "as he does in all his [refering to Paul] letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." In John 14:26 Christ tells us that the reason these books are inspired is because the Holy Spirit has moved through these men and God has commissioned them to bring His will to the world. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26)"

A few centuries later the Holy Spirit moved again through the Church and allowed Christians far smarter than I to discern that the 27 books that make up the New Testament are God-breathed. Paul may have penned the words, but God wrote the letters.

Now in 1 Timothy 2:13 Paul states his reasoning for women not being in authority over men is because "For Adam was formed first, then Eve;". This wasn't a cultural opinion, it was a doctrinal statement referring to God's order of Creation. In Genesis 3:16 God tells Eve "To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children; yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you,”. So once again, it has nothing to do with what the culture was doing at the time, but what God had set down from the beginning. Move the verse to today and even though women aren't looked at in the same manner as they did back when Paul wrote to Timothy, God still put man in authority over women. For a women to be a pastor she would need to have the same authority over their church as Christ has over the whole Church (aka Christians), going against both 1 Timothy 2:12 (Paul's 'suggestion' and Genesis 3:16 'God's Command').

So the husband is to rule over the woman. But WHY? The man is to rule over the woman as a PENALTY of SIN. So with our new Salvation in Christ, through justification that allows us to be lifted from the penalty of sin, are the woman under this penalty of sin?

First we need to look at Genesis 3. Genesis 3 never makes the claim that verse 6 happens immediately have verse 5. Go back and look at chapter 2, verses 1-4 take place on the 7th day of creation but verse 7 says 'then the Lord God formed the man from dust" which as we know happened on the 6th day. So just because they are written right next to each other doesn't mean they took place one right after the other.

For that matter quiet a few concerns come up had Adam been standing right next to Eve when she was deceived.

-First it is possible to be with someone and not directly in her presence. I can be with a friend at a restaurant but he may physically be in the bathroom.
-To have Adam right there watching Eve get deceived is quiet serious, and yet many translations leave out the part stating he was with her.
-At this point in time Adam was a perfect sinless creature, why would he overlook Eve's sin?
-When God addresses Adam and Eve after they sinned why did Adam blame Eve and not the serpent who, if he was there, would have been the one to convince him to eat and not Eve?
-It's not written that God tells Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. In fact when she tells the serpent God's command she claims they are not allowed to touch, which God never commanded. Seems more like something Adam would have said when he repeated the command to her. So it seems as though Adam embellised to protect Eve out of love, if he's willing to do that why would he stand by and watch her sin?
-Through the Bible as a whole Satan prefers to approach people to tempt them when they are alone, take for example Christs 40-day fast in the desert. I know when I'm alone I am more likely to sin, because Satan knows that in a group there are others that are likely to point out when we are about to sin. Why would this attempt be different?
-Before sin they were on equal footing spiritually before God, but afterwards God puts Adam in charge of Eve. Had Adam been deceived at the same time as Eve he would be just as guilty, so why would God put him in the place of authority?
-Adam's punishment was because he had listened to Eve instead of God. Again, if he was right there with Eve he wouldn't have been deceived by Eve but by the serpent.

Not only that but we know God is a fair God, and yet Adam and Eve were punished differently. Had they both been present and both been deceived by the Satan than their punishments should have been the same since they both would have committed the same sin. Eve's pride forced her to take authority over Adam and make a decision that would effect both of them, God viewed both as equals as "one flesh' but her sin broke design.

Adam on the other hand listened to his wife rather than listening to God. In fact he rejected God to side with his wife. His sin was far more severe. Now some might think that Adam taking authority over Eve was a gift but I think it was a curse, he was now the responsible one (as we see when the Bible reference sin entering the world through one man) and he had to take the blame of the sin that caused all creation to suffer.

So in a way yes, man was given authority over women because of sin. But you have to remember just because God has forgiven you and I for our sin doesn't mean we become sinless. I know I still sin quiet often, it's not something I'm proud of but I certainly can't deny it. So we may be forgiven for the sin, but the sin isn't gone, our flesh nature is still apart of us and will be until we reach Heaven.

[TruthPastor]

Seraph,

Thank you for your opinion. I believe you are using the scripture you are using in the wrong context, but I see how you interpret your information. I just disagree. You may be right, but I don't see it the same way you do.

[TruthPastor]

Pastor Rich and I conferred on this issue and we both agreed that I should clarify something in my post.

In my post it appears (I re-read my post) that I am taking a position of Paul's suggestions not being applicable, or that I am stating my opinion simple based on my believing Paul was just making suggestions. Rather it is the other supporting documentation by Paul and others Apostles related to women that I base my opinion on, in addition to those thoughts. I may not have articulated that very well previously so allow me to clearly state:

I believe that Paul's thoughts, even if they are just recommendations or preferences, have merit and come from someone who had a deep relationship with the Lord. We know there were definitely cultural things in place that caused Paul to write some things. As an example, Paul had never seen a Republic or a Democracy before when he wrote Romans 13. Paul also wrote about slavery with no mention of it being wrong.

Paul did utilize and accept women as part of ministry several times in Priscilla and Phoebe. He also mentions Lydia as a place he found refuge. There are also notable female leaders in the Bible from Deborah to Anna the prophetess. The way Jesus treated women was from a cultural standpoint, unacceptable. I believe that Paul's statement about women being silent in the church in 1 Cor 14, relates to the disorder of the service (which is in context) rather than women being silent. It is clear that earlier in 1 Cor 11 that women did prophesy and pray, which is stated as being a greater gift than teaching.

Two other things that, in my opinion greatly eliminate the ideology that men are superior in the sense that people take it from the scriptures, come from Acts 2 and Gal 3.

Acts 2:14-18; "14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Galatians 3:28; "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

There are so many things we don't know. When it all comes down we have to go directly to the commandments of Christ, which state we're to love. He is looking at the condition of the heart. I find that in many places the "church" uses the scripture to beat people down and control them, rather than use the scriptures as a way to build people up and help them recognize who they are in Christ.

I believe that today we should affirm those whom God has called, whether they are male or female! We should encourage them to walk boldly in their giftings and to be faithful in their call. The harvest field is abundant and we need all the workers, male and female, to bring the harvest in!

[Red Baron]

I believe that today we should affirm those whom God has called, whether they are male or female! We should encourage them to walk boldly in their giftings and to be faithful in their call. The harvest field is abundant and we need all the workers, male and female, to bring the harvest in!

Amen!